Mormonism Discussion Topics

"Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free."

John 8:32

Discussion Topics

What is your response to the following 16 statements?

1. The main book which the church is founded upon has been changed 4,000 times.


2. Every worthy member of the church can become a god -- just like God Himself.


3. Man is co-equal with God himself.


4. Man is King of Kings and Lord of Lords in embryo.


5. We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and so on.


6. The holy Trinity and salvation by grace are the two Great Heresies of Christendom.


7. An individual personal spiritual experience is better than checking scriptures to prove something is true.


8. The Bible is not the word of God, but the word of uninspired translators.


9. It was not unusual for "some old Jew" to change Scripture as he copied it.


10. The American Indians are: Jewish, Caucasian, or Mongoloid?


11. Salvation comes by: (1) grace through faith, or (2) good works.


12. Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.


13. The blood of Christ will never wipe that (sin) out, your own blood must atone for it.


14. The Third Article of Faith says: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."


15. We gratefully acknowledge that we are saved by grace alone.


16. Jesus was not crucified for the actual individual transgressions of the people, but only for Original Sin.

A Changing Religion

• (1) The Book of Mormon has been changed in nearly 4,000 places since it was published 150 years ago.


• The Church instituted polygamy as a "new and everlasting covenant."


• The Church would not let blacks hold the Mormon priesthood.

Polygamy

• Mormonism swore it should never give the doctrine of polygamy up. But, in 1890, when the United States government threatened to confiscate the holding of the Church in Utah and banish Mormonism to Mexico, "suddenly" God produced a "new revelation" and the Church abandoned the practice.

The Priesthood & Blacks

• For 140 years the Church would not let blacks hold the Mormon priesthood, but during the civil rights activism of the 1960's, when the Church's General Conferences began to be picketed by civil rights groups, President Spencer W. Kimball "got a revelation" that the blacks were now to be allowed to hold the priesthood. The Book of Mormon was again edited to reflect the change.

Mormonism Has Many Gods

Mormonism has many gods...

• (2) Every worthy member of the Mormon Church can become a god -- just like God Himself.


• "As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become."


• Every practicing Mormon hopes that one day he himself will be a god.


• God was once a man, who "progressed to godhood." God could cease to be God if He lost the support of the other gods.

Mormon Beliefs

• (3) Joseph Smith claimed: "Man is co-equal with God himself."


• Joseph Smith preached the plurality of gods.


• You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves... the same as all Gods have done before you...


• (4) Brigham Young said, "Man is King of Kings and Lord of Lords in embryo."

So Many Gods

• (5) Orson Pratt stated: "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and so on...."


• "We wonder how the first Father was begotten."

Will The Real God Stand Up?

• Mormonism would have us believe that Elohim was once a man and that he grew up on a planet and advanced to godhood.


• Mormon theology makes it essential for all gods to have first been men.


• So where did the first man come from? There is, therefore, no Creator! No First Cause! No God!

There Is Only One God!

• God cannot have a grandfather. Nothing can predate Him. Any being predating Him would Himself be God.


• The First Commandment - Exodus 20 - "You shall have no other gods before me."


• Isaiah 43:10-11 - Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.


• Isaiah 44:6-7 - I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Mormonism Tells A Different Story

Mormonism tells a different story...

• Jesus was conceived as the result of physical sex between God the Father and the Virgin Mary.


• The wedding in Cana was the wedding of none other that Jesus Himself, who wed three women: Mary, her sister Martha, and "the other Mary." And He had children by them.

Mormons Believe

• (6) The doctrines of the holy Trinity and salvation by grace are, in the words of Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie, "the two Great Heresies of Christendom."


• Heresy: Belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (esp. Christian) doctrine.


• "A special personal relationship with Christ is both improper and perilous."

What Difference Between God and the Church?

• The faithful Mormon fails to differentiate between God and the Church.


• No legitimate Christian worker will attempt to convince someone to submit his/her destiny to a denomination , group, or prophet.

The Beginnings Of Mormonism

The Beginnings of Mormonism

• The frontier in the early 1800's was referred to as "the psychic highway."


• Settlers brought with them an experimental approach to religious and social ideas.


• An age of religious innovators, who in reaction to established religion drafted their faith from the pages of the Bible (and sometimes from other documents).

Joseph Smith - Founder of Mormonism

• Joseph Smith was influenced by his mother, Lucy Mack Smith.


• Lucy decided "there was not, upon the face of the earth, the religion she sought."


• The Smiths...began to dabble in the world of the occult.


• Water-witching and treasure-seeking by way of mysterious "seer-stones" were practiced.

Joseph Smith

• Convicted for being a "disorderly person" and "an impostor."


• Convicted of witchcraft as a "glass-looker".


• Others testified that Joseph sacrificed lambs, roosters, and even a pet dog in his efforts to obtain treasure.


• It was in the context of treasure-seeking that Joseph Smith first began to speak of finding "gold plates." Shortly after, he published the Book of Mormon in 1830.

Joseph Smith

• His Christian philosophy was being formulated at the same time his occult skills were being sharpened.


• There was no way of settling religious questions "by an appeal to the Bible."


• If he were to learn anything about God, it would have to come from his own personal revelation.

The Visitations of Moroni

• Joseph received regular visitations from the spirit world.


• The angel Moroni was going to show Joseph buried gold plates, which would be translated into the Book of Mormon.


• Joseph's visitations form the basis of his claim to be "The Prophet."

The Death of Joseph Smith

• Joseph met his death in an Illinois jail at the hands of an angry mob in 1844.


• As he died, he emptied a smuggled revolver into a crowd, killing two men.


• Of his own career, Joseph said, "No man ever did such a work as I. Not Paul, John, Peter, or even Jesus! God is my 'right hand man.'"

The Gold Plates

• Three witnesses had sworn that they had seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.


• All three had been excommunicated from the Mormon Church after they lost confidence in Joseph Smith and accused him of lying, adultery, and "deep...error and blindness."

The Book of Mormon

• Joseph Smith said he translated the Book of Mormon from gold plates by "the gift and power of God." That it was the most perfect of any book on the face of the earth.


• But, in reality, the Book of Mormon has been changed nearly four thousand times in the last hundred and fifty years.

Objectives For Discussion

Three Objectives For Religious Discussion

1. Isolate: Deal with one very specific subject.


2. Qualify: Ask if the other person will qualify or change their position, if you are proved to be right.


3. Verify: Verify your point.

Doing What Is Right

• Wanting to do right is not the same as doing right.


• There is a way, that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
  Proverbs 14:12

Is Mormonism True

The Use of Christ's Name

• False prophets want to add Christ to their mix so they can add Christians to their congregations.


• False prophets display three characteristics:
  
  1. They have false visions. Colossians 2:18
  2. They come from within the Christian Church. - 1st John 2:19
  3. They seek disciples. Acts 20:29-30

Is Mormonism True?

• (7) Mormons encourage listeners to strive for a spiritual experience to prove to themselves that Mormonism is true.


• And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if you shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost (Moroni 10:4)

Mormonism Wants Its Converts To Say Four Things

• 1. That they "know" that the Book of Mormon is "True."
• 2. That they "know" that Joseph Smith was a "True Prophet."
• 3. That they "know" the Mormon Church is "God's True Church."
• 4. That they "know" the President of the Church is a "Living Prophet of God."

Jesus Never Said... "Get a 'burning in your bosom' about Me."
Rather, He says, "Test Me by the Scriptures."

Mormons Do Not Trust The Bible

Mormons Do Not Trust The Bible

Orson Pratt said:

• (8) "The Bible is not the word of God, but the word of uninspired translators."
• "Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution?"

Source of Truth?

• What Mormons believe will not be determined by what the Bible says.


• Their doctrine is dictated to them from the Church Office Building in Salt Lake City.


• The Bible must be the only rule for faith and doctrine.


• Former revelation always judges latter revelation!


• Joseph Smith is judged by the Bible, not vice versa.

God Does Not Change

• Because God doesn't change His mind, former revelation judges latter revelation, assuming the former revelation has been accurately preserved.

If The Bible Is Proved To Be True?

• Two Options Remain for the Mormon:
  
  1. He can choose to change his belief system to line up with the Bible, or
  2. He can choose to continue to adhere to a faith he no longer believes.

Proof For The Preservation Of The Bible

1. First is the futility of God giving Scripture if He knew it would be lost. It is logically inconsistent to think that the Creator could set out to give us Scripture and then be foiled in His attempt by the foibles of men.


2. Second is the vindication of the Old Testament by Christ. Jesus quoted from it copiously.

Textual Critics Agree

• Textual critics, whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim, agnostic, or atheist, are in agreement regarding the miraculous preservation of the biblical text.

The Original & The Copies

• Paul suggested that copies of his letters be passed around through the churches.


• Scientists have access to thousands of these ancient manuscript fragments, which were found in various parts of the world: Africa, Asia, Europe...


• If the copies are in strict agreement, the textual critic knows, with a high degree of confidence, what the original said.

The Bible Is Certain

• One leading critic, Sir Frederic Kenyon, has said, "It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain."


• Dr. Richard Anderson, a BYU professor, says Kenyon is right! That all the ancient manuscripts agree in 99% of the Bible verses.

Biblical Preservation

• God preserved His Word through the same agency He used to deliver it--men.


• (9) Joseph Smith was fond of saying that it was not unusual for "some old Jew" to change Scripture as he copied it.


• Their eighth Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Notice, there is no qualification on the translation of the Book of Mormon, only on the Bible. - PDF Article


• The Old Testament scribes and scholars, Talmudists, believed it was their sacred duty to preserve the Scripture exactly.

Talmudists Adhered To The Following Regulations

• The scrolls had to be written on the skins of ceremonially clean animals.


• No word or mark could be written from memory; the scribe had to look at each word before he wrote it.


• Between each letter was the space of a hair's breadth or thread.


• Many more regulations had to be followed.

The Masoretes

• During the four hundred years from 500 A.D. to 900 A.D., a group of Jews called the Masoretes accepted the job of standardizing the Hebrew text.


• The Masoretic Text is so reliable that virtually every modern translation -- in all languages -- relies exclusively upon it.


• Their accomplishment was verified by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947.

The Word Of God

• The Word of God is the objective yardstick by which Latter-Day Saints may measure Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and Mormon doctrine.

Differences In Verse - Which Verse Is Correct?

• Isaiah 2:9 (KJV) - And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.


• II Nephi 12:9 - And the mean man "boweth not down, and the great man humbleth himself not, therefore, forgive him not." (Page 81)

Taken Out Of Context

• Isaiah was not talking about men who will not bow down to God; on the contrary, he was talking about men who do bow down to idols!


• God is saying, in this passage, "both small and great men are bowing down to idols and I won't forgive them for it."

A Burning In The Bosom

• This expression is taken from Doctrine and Covenants, Section 9, verses 8-9, which is a prophecy given through Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery during the "translating" of the Book of Mormon.


• God has not said in Scripture that He will give you a burning in the bosom to tell you if something is true.

Truth vs. Experience

• If one allows himself to equate "experience" with truth, he isolates himself from reason and from Scripture.


• Religious truth cannot be documented by "spiritual experience" because the dark side to spiritual power is capable of appearing as light.

Check The Scriptures

• Joseph should have checked the message of the angel against the gospel of Christ:


• Galatians 1:8 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Historical Overview

Historical Overview

• Joseph Smith claimed that God had appeared to him in a vision.


• Joseph received visits from a spirit calling himself Moroni, a white Nephite soldier.


• The Nephites were descendants of a Jew named Lehi, who left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. under the direction of God.


• They sailed to South or Central America.


• Moroni buried gold plates containing the records of his people in western New York.

The Book Of Mormon

• Moroni delivered the gold plates to Joseph Smith to translate into the Book of Mormon.


• The Book of Mormon was published in 1830.


• All three Witnesses and all of the Eight Witnesses -- fell out with Joseph Smith and left the Church.

The Book of Mormon can be demonstrated to be of human nature, not divine origin.

• First, the Book of Mormon has been changed some 4,000 times in the last 150 years.


• Second, the theology of the Book of Mormon does not support much of the theology of Mormonism.

Science Disagrees

• Third, The sciences of geography, archaeology, and anthropology demonstrate the Book of Mormon cannot be a record of pre-Columbian American peoples.


• The book of Jacob ends with a French word: Adieu? (Page 135) How could a French word be translated from Reformed Egyptian into English? And why?

Problems With The Book

• BYU Professor of Anthropology Ray T. Matheny calls the constant reference in the Book of Mormon to iron implements "a king-size problem."


• There was no iron mining in the Western Hemisphere in pre-Columbian times.


• It speaks of gold and silver coinage. No Western-style coins have ever been found from pre-Columbian America.

Fact or Fiction?

• Matheny concludes that the Book of Mormon terminology's and language are "nineteenth-century literary concepts and cultural experiences one would expect Joseph Smith and his colleagues to experience."


• In other words, this Brigham Young University professor thinks Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon.

American Indian = Hebrew Jew?

• Another BYU Professor, John L. Sorensen, an anthropologist, says the American Indians clearly did not descend from Hebrews.


• (10) The American Indians are, with no challenge, Mongoloid, not Caucasian.

A House Divided

• Brigham H. Roberts was a Mormon General Authority.


• Toward the end of his life, Roberts reexamined the Book of Mormon and concluded that it was not of divine origin.

A Different Jesus

A Different Jesus?

• The Apostle Paul talks about false apostles who preach a different Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel. 2nd Corinthians 11:4


• The Jesus of Mormonism is the "spirit-brother of Satan; the Jesus of Christianity created Satan."


• The spirit of Mormonism is occult in nature, as evidenced by the temple ceremony.


• (11) The Gospel of Jesus is salvation by grace through faith; the gospel of Mormonism is salvation by good works.

Mormonism Has:

• A Different Jesus!
• A Different Spirit
• A Different Gospel

Defense - Not Offense

• Christians need to defend themselves against Mormonism, not attack it.


• Joseph Smith threw down the gauntlet when he said, "All other denominations are wrong, all their creeds are abominations and all the professors of those creeds are corrupt."

A Mormon Prophet?

• Mormons believe the authority of God was "restored" when Peter, James, and John appeared to ordain Joseph Smith to the Melchizedek Priesthood.


• A prophet who speaks contrary to Scripture, is no prophet.
  Deuteronomy 18:21-22


• Nowhere in Scripture do we see the Mormon concept of a prophet as the head of a church organization.

Faith and/or Good Works?

• Good works can't save anybody.


• Romans 3:10 - "There is no one righteous, not even one..."


• If a person says he has faith in Christ, and yet exhibits no fruit of that faith, I have reason to doubt the validity of his faith. That's because valid faith always produces fruit. But, on the other hand, fruit doesn't always produce faith. No amount of good works will make people Christians.

Mormons Can Become Gods

Mormons Can Become Gods?

• Mormons say, "Why do you oppose our idea of becoming gods? The bible says, "There are gods many and lords many..."


• Mormonism has taken the text out of context. Paul is talking about demon-gods.

The Book of Mormon

• Mormons say, "You say the Book of Mormon was not written by God, but how could a fifteen-year-old boy write the Book of Mormon?"


• First, Joseph Smith was twenty-five, not fifteen when he published the Book of Mormon.


• Second, the Book of Mormon heavily plagiarized the content of other works already in print.

The Birth of Christ

• Mormon doctrine teaches that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary in order to procreate Christ.


• (12) Brigham Young said, "... Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."


• Orson Pratt said the Father (God) and Mary must have been married if God overshadowed her.


• Heber C. Kimball said there was nothing supernatural about the birth of Jesus.

The Atonement of Sin

• (13) Brigham Young said, "The blood of Christ will never wipe that (sin) out, your own blood must atone for it."


• Brother Brigham was as good as his word. He ordered people ritually slain "to atone for their sins."


• There was a Mormon organization known as the "Destroying Angels," or "Danites." (known as the Killing Squad).

The Mormon "Killing Squad"

• Men like John D. Lee and Bill Hickman and Porter Rockwell carried out dozens of official Brigham-ordered murders.


• The Utah capital punishment law was written to include a form of death that would shed blood (firing squad).

Penalty of Death

• Even to this day all participants in Mormon temple ceremonies place their right thumbs under their left ears and draw the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear to "symbolize the penalty" for revealing the temple ceremony.

Murderous Acts

• Recently, Ron Lafferty, a former Mormon leader in Utah, was convicted of ritually slitting the throat of his sister-in-law, Brenda, and her eighteen-month-old daughter.


• The Lafferty brothers claimed that the slayings were not crimes but rather "the fulfillment of a revelation from God."


• Lafferty chose the firing squad "because of blood atonement."

Mormonism Confuses More Than It Clears Up.

The Doctrine of Polygamy?

• Book of Mormon - Jacob 2:24 (Page 121) - Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.


• Joseph Smith - Doctrine and Covenants, Sec.132, vs.1 - I, the Lord, justified... David and Solomon... as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.

Mormonism Confuses More Than It Clears Up.

One God vs. Many Gods?

• Book of Mormon - Alma 11:26-29 (*34) - And Zeezrom said unto him:... "Is there more than one God" And he (Amulek) answered, "No."


• Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, p.333 - How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods.

Paid Ministry

• The Mormon Church makes much of the fact that it has no paid ministry. General Authorities invariably sit on the boards of directors of Church-owned corporations like U&I Sugar and Beneficial Life Insurance. The First Presidency and Apostles make tens of thousands of dollars from the Church or Church-owned companies.

The Mormon Family

• "Spirit children" are patiently waiting in heaven to be "born under the covenant."


• When somebody leaves the Church, he endangers the salvation of other family members.


• Women do not hold the priesthood. They are dependent upon their husbands to enter the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom.


• Mormons expect to practice polygamy in heaven.

Polygamy

• The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy. Jacob 2:23-27


• But Mormons were accused of polygamy from the earliest days of Mormonism.


• Their Church officially denied the charge, declaring that "one man should have one wife..."


• Section 104 of the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants declared that the Church believed polygamy to be a crime.

Contradiction

• When Joseph finally came out of the closet, he brought polygamy as a commandment of the Lord.


• Amazingly, although Joseph was practicing polygamy from 1835 on, and while the official revelation on the subject came in 1843, and while the practice was widespread in Utah from 1847, the Church continued to publish the 1835 revelation against polygamy until 1876.

What Does The Bible Say?

• Paul calls the Church to monogamy in 1st Timothy 3:2.


• James Spencer believes that Mormon polygamy was born in the lust of Joseph Smith.


• In an attempt to justify polygamy, Mormon Church leaders even taught that Jesus was a polygamist!

Atonement of Christ

Atonement of Christ

• To a Mormon the atoning work of Christ pays for no personal sins. (Alma 11:34)


• It merely buys physical resurrection for all people - regardless of their faith.


• "Heaven" as a Mormon would understand it is reserved for Mormons who fully obey the laws and ordinances of the Mormon gospel.

The Mormon Heaven

• Mormon heaven actually includes three heavens with the highest partitioned into three more levels.


• The "exalted ones" in the highest level will become gods and create people and their own worlds.

More Differences

• Obedience is the one single most important word in Mormon salvation theology.


• Grace is the one single most important word in Christian salvation theology.


• Man is not saved by doctrine, but by relationship.

If man could be put right with God through the Law, then Christ died for nothing. - Galatians 2:21

• The essence of Mormon salvation is the belief that salvation is a "process." A process of obedience to "laws and ordinances."


• (14) The Third Article of Faith says: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."


• The atoning work of the Cross is undone because it is only one step in a process.

There are at least six different estates to which men will be assigned, based upon their conduct in this and the next life.

• Celestial Kingdom (3 Levels)
  
  1. Terrestrial Kingdom
  2. Telestrial Kingdom
  3. Perdition
  
  
• Joseph Smith said, "Hell is by no means the place this world of fools supposes it to be, but on the contrary, it is quite an agreeable place." The Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844

Not by Works

• Joseph Smith said, "That if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven...must include more kingdoms than one."


• Evangelicals understand that salvation comes through the merits of the shed blood of Christ.

By Grace Are We Saved

• Ephesians 2:1 - Man is hopelessly lost in sin, unable to raise himself from the mire of his fallen nature, "dead in transgressions and sins."


• (15) Ephesians 2:8-9 - We gratefully acknowledge that we are saved by grace alone.

A Tree Is Known By Its Fruit

• James 2:14 - What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?


• James 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.


• James 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Self-Improvement

• The most "natural" thing in the world is that we begin a program of self-improvement that culminates in our full acceptability to God.


• Buddhism teaches the Four Noble Truths and the eightfold Path to righteousness.


• The Unification Church teaches the concept of indemnity, that man becomes good by living in the shadow of the True Parents (Sun Myung Moon and his wife).

Self-Righteousness

• Hinduism teaches the Law of Karma, that man is reincarnated until he is refined enough to become one with the Kosmic Mind.


• Every religion on the face of the earth, outside of Bible Christianity, teaches salvation by some form of self-improvement or self-righteousness. Mormonism is not unique in that respect.

Sin Goes Unpunished

All these self-help doctrines, in the final analysis, fail to deal with sin!

Man is a sinner deserving punishment and no amount of good works will pay for the sin he has already committed.

Isaiah 53:4-6 - Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(16) Brigham Young states...

• Jesus was "not crucified for the actual individual transgressions of the people, but only for Original Sin."

Romans 10:1-4 - 1 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Credits

Have You Witnessed To a Mormon Lately?
by James R. Spencer
Published by Chosen Books
Fleming H. Revell Company
Tarrytown, New York (1986)

Dedicated to Sharing the Truth In All Things.
Salvation comes from Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:12 - "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

Missionary Response Letter